I’m going to try really hard not to get all ranty-mcranty here, but I can’t promise anything.
I’m only going to tackle one tiny piece of this because this is a slice of the ‘not dominant enough’ pie, which is as big as the entire world, it seems.
New dominant women exploring D/s relationships often struggle with ‘demanding things’ from their submissive. They don’t know how to do it, and it often makes them feel bad. There are really two main reasons for this:
1. They feel selfish and this makes them feel guilty and
2. There is an assumption that ‘demanding things’ = being mean, using a shouty voice, acting like a bitch.
The first is huge: social conditioning, upbringing, un-niceness etc etc. I’m not tackling that one right now. I’m aiming squarely at the second one.
The second one is a lot simpler.
I hear “Oh, I can’t be mean…” a lot from new Dommes.
Guess what?
You don’t have to. Really.
A lot of women don’t like behaving like that.
Really?
What a surprise, right?!
I mean, seriously, is it a shock to *anyone* that women don’t want to change who they are to get what they want? And that’s really what it amounts to. It’s akin to saying: “If you want this stuff, you have to *act like this totally different person* to get it.” WTF?
When I say “Can you make me a coffee, please, baby?” I’m saying, “Make me a coffee, now“, but I’m a pretty polite person most of the time and unless I am playing around for fun and kicks, I really don’t ‘demand things’ in a shouty kind of way. It’s not some sort of requirement or measure of domliness.
In a discussion recently, when I gave the example above about asking for a coffee, I had this follow-up exchange with another dominant woman:
—
She said: If I were to use the same sentance you used here in your example, “Can you make me a coffee, please, baby?”, I would get “yes, I could” in return, but no action. He does not interpret the polite request as an order. He wants “go do this” and I can’t seem to make that change in my vocabulary. Would, could, should, want, need, can… doesn’t seem to matter how I phrase things, all are ignored because they are wrong. So I have given up trying. It’s just easier for me to do things myself.
My response: Grrrr… this makes me mad *shakes fist wildly*.
I do understand it, I do. He wants the subbie buzz of having a shouty lady tell him what to do *raawwrrr!!*, but instead of taking it on as your problem (e.g. to change your vocabulary and behaviour), it’s really a boring old communication problem. I assume you have had a talk with him about “when I say x, y, z, I mean ‘go do it right now'”? If not, you need to do that. And if you have done that, and he still behaves this way, well now he’s just being a jerk.
Obviously I have no idea what your dynamic is like (and I know this is slightly off topic, but this just makes me so mad!! *laugh*), but ‘training’ him to interpret your words differently seems to me to be a better solution than trying to make yourself speak in an unnatural and uncomfortable way just to get what you want.
If it was me, I’d be enacting consequences for every time he interprets my words as a vague non-request instead of as an order, it’s up to him to learn that when you use gentle words, you are ordering him to do that thing. I know that getting him there is work for you (and I have no doubt that it is easier to just do it yourself), but often getting to the result you want is a pain in the arse, and it is work. But I’d guess that it’s worthwhile for both of you if you’re already emotionally attached.
In short: Tell him to make a goddamn effort to please you and stop being an arsehole!! Grrrrr… *more wild fist waving*
—
My response there is really about all the times I hear “She’s not dominant enough” from submissive men. It just pisses me off on behalf of every Domme who gets that message in whatever way it’s delivered. And many women who hear that message try to twist themselves into a ‘more dominant’ shape based on those messages. No. Fuck you, she is dominant enough, now either get with the program and fucking submit or GTFO!
The idea that you have to act all ‘ordery-demanding’ to get what you want makes me all kinds of fist wavy. If you, as a dominant woman, want to act like that, then great, have at it. If you don’t want to, then don’t. If your submissive doesn’t respond to you in the way you want, then sit down and talk about how you are going to address it.
It’s perfectly valid for a submissive to say, “Well, the entire dynamic doesn’t work for me if my dominant doesn’t get all shouty-demandy at me” and to seek that out. But if that’s not something that comes naturally to you, as the Domme in that scenario, the solution isn’t to go trying to change your behaviour to please him. You are simply incompatible: Move on.
So to the question: how do you demand something?
HOWEVER YOU FUCKING WANT!!
You know what I like?
Submissive men who pay attention and look for ways to make me happy, men who will smile with delight when I ask them politely for something and jump up to do it, not men who look for excuses to *not* make me happy because “you iz doin’ it wrong“.
Fuck off!
68 comments
I can only speak for myself here, but I would not want to be yelled at as in: “GIMME A GODDAMN CUP OF COFFEE!!! In my mind, if She has to yell or grouse to get what she needs, there is something wrong. Harshness is not a part of my normal interactions… It just simply isn’t.
I also do not get a rush out being “told” to do something because that is not why I submit. Rather, it is in putting a smile on the face of someone I love and respect because making her happy makes me happy.
Therefore, a “polite request” would be treated like as demand and I would hope that in time, I would be able to anticipate her needs so that polite requests are all that are ever needed.
“Harshness is not a part of my normal interactions… It just simply isn’t.”
And it’s not for most women either, I just think they get these messages either directly or indirectly that ‘that’s how it should be’. Ugh.
And I should really have tempered my rant a little to also cover ‘giving orders’ which is not yelling or meanness, but is more of a command-like ‘Go do this’ versus something sweeter.
“Therefore, a “polite request” would be treated like as demand and I would hope that in time, I would be able to anticipate her needs so that polite requests are all that are ever needed.”
That sounds perfectly lovely and I am sure there are many many women who would adore that. Including me.
Ferns
I have come up with a set of guiding principles that seem to work satisfactorily. I call it “The Ferns Axiom.” It is simple, really. In a nutshell it distills to an essence the following,” “Pay Attention, and give her what she is asking for.”
Naive of me, perhaps, but it seems to be working so far.
eric
*laugh* I am liking The Ferns Axiom. Nice work.
I’d probable amend that to ‘what she wants’ though, because hopefully she doesn’t have to ask *every* time.
Ferns
Cattle prod for those you’re not dominant enough moments…. Although in deference to Ferns I will now add the words Moo Motherfucker AFTER the encouraging zap is given
Coug
“*Bzzzzzztttt!!!* Moo motherfucker!!!”
Totally works for me.
Ferns
On a serious note I always “gently” remind them that a request from me is merely a politely worded order and if they really want they can go for impolite…. most don’t more than once ;)
Coug
Yes, ideally that would do it.
Ferns
I love you for adressing this. I seriously do.
It’s been one of the problems on my mind for a while now and it just feels good to have your point of view emphasized and supported like that. Thanks.
Also yay for the fist-waving! :)
I’m so glad it helped somehow, and I hope you get whatever problems you have sorted soon.
“Also yay for the fist-waving! :)”
*laugh* I do like a bit of ranty fist waving now and then.
Ferns
Why shouldn’t a polite request be enough for anyone?
I seriously fail to grasp how one could be in a relationship, having discussed and enacted some sort of power dynamic and then, when asked to do something just sit there like a bump on log because she wasn’t mean and shouty!
Hell even if you aren’t in a D/s relationship what kind of lazy self centered ass doesn’t get up to do something for his SO when asked?
“Yes, I could.” and no action.
What is he a first grade teacher trying to illustrate the difference be can and will?
Can you even call yourself submissive if you only do things once your partner is cracking the whip? How does anyone get it in their head that a relationship could continue to function like that?
Ugh. You know that feeling when people don’t appreciate how good they’ve got it?
“Why shouldn’t a polite request be enough for anyone?”
Inorite?!
So my take is that it’s about him wanting to *feel* dominated and if he doesn’t, then he’s not getting what he wants out of the exchange, so then he’s all ‘eh, why should I?’
I have no answers to any of your (rather rhetorical, but very fine) incredulous questions.
I like your disbelief and outrage, it makes me happy (and the ‘first grade teacher’ remark made me laugh)!
Ferns
I think people mess up being firm with being mean. Communication, folks. It isn’t that hard and then you don’t feel mean.
This is very true, and I didn’t really talk about that much because I was too busy ranting.
I kind of went from the uber-polite vanilla-ey version to the shouty-demanding one, but of course there is lots in between.
“Get me a coffee,” all calm and firm is probably somewhere in the middle.
Ferns
OMG, I get that all the time. My Felix does what I tell him, or what I ask him, but then a few months later, he will ONCE AGAIN tell me that he would like it better if I were more forceful with my demands. I have to keep telling him that what he sees is what he is going to get. So when I say, “This is what I would like for you to do,” then he should not try to find out how I will react if I am denied. He tried that once, and now he gets it. When I ask nicely, I only do so once.
At least it’s only every few months, and it sounds likes you have it well in hand. Good for you!
To me the asking is fine as long as the Domme has the confidence to handle it (like you do), and he accepts her position. It bothers me most when a *new* Domme is made to feel like she isn’t domly enough because she *doesn’t* behave that way. That’s when I get all ranty.
Ferns
Joining you in “*more wild fist waving*”!
I recognize this post you are referring to. When I first saw it, I had to walk away for a few hours before I could clear my head to even respond because I get so crazy when I hear women told this! Especially when they have agreed to find this part of themselves and are not being given the chance to find their own voice in their new role in the relationship. When I cooled down and came back, you and the others had already given great advice. Yeah!
Keep those fist waving!!!! :)
~ Vista
“Especially when they have agreed to find this part of themselves and are not being given the chance to find their own voice in their new role in the relationship.”
Yes! *Especially* then. Exactly.
“Keep those fist waving!!!! :)”
*laugh* Oh, they’re waving!
Ferns
I think some boys can get caught up in that porn fantasy fixation of Mean Shouty Lady in Latex Catsuit. But fantasy mean shouty lady in the movies doesn’t actually have needs of her own – she’s a fantasy!!
It’s taken me a while to learn, as a part-time dominant and full-time human woman, the value of taking a deep breath and thinking ‘but what do *I* want out of this?’ Your occasional rants have definitely helped me in that regard, Ferns. It helps to remember you’re not being a cranky bitch and you do have every right to tell your sub to step off when he’s being whiny and demanding (a la ‘but you didn’t say it right!’).
I’m not saying it’s not important to pay attention to what gets him hot too, but he doesn’t get to call the shots like that… it’s kind of the point, right?
“…the value of taking a deep breath and thinking ‘but what do *I* want out of this?’”
*Such* a big thing, and I think it often gets lost.
I think there is nearly always an aspect of wanting to be the ‘perfect Domme’ early on, and I get that, I do. I mean, who doesn’t want to blow their man’s mind, which means pressing all of his buttons at once in the way he wants them pressed. But it’s only going to work for so long before she goes “hooollldddd on…”.
I liked how Vista talked about women ‘finding their own voice’, and I think many new Dommes are not being given the space to do that. I think that many then figure this domination lark is just a whole bunch of work and not much of what they *actually* enjoy.
“I’m not saying it’s not important to pay attention to what gets him hot too”
You’re right and I am swinging right the other way as if it doesn’t matter. It does. But requiring her to behave like someone she’s not in order for him to be submissive? No, just no.
“he doesn’t get to call the shots like that… it’s kind of the point, right?”
THAT’S THE POINT!! *laugh*
Ferns
I’m loving the hell out of this entire premise. I don’t at all like the whole ‘to make orders you have to be the spiteful hateful bitch’. To put it lightly, that doesn’t particularily engage me.
I much prefer the ‘oh, dear, go fetch me XYZ’ and then a ‘thanks, hon’ once that’s been fetched. Because, there needs to be thanks and appreciation. I’m fetching things and *generally* being useful, so, as a thank you, you, you know, say thank you. Because, I like b eing thanked, I like being appreciated.
“I’m loving the hell out of this entire premise. I don’t at all like the whole ‘to make orders you have to be the spiteful hateful bitch’. To put it lightly, that doesn’t particularily engage me.”
I’m glad to hear it, and I do know it’s not uncommon. I suspect the desire for rude-demanding is much more prevalent with newbies (on both sides), which makes it all the harder to manage.
“I much prefer the ‘oh, dear, go fetch me XYZ’ and then a ‘thanks, hon’ once that’s been fetched. Because, there needs to be thanks and appreciation.”
Yes!
And so, presumably you wouldn’t choose to be with someone who was demandy-shouty and who never said please or thank you and then keep asking them to change to suit you. That would be madness!
Ferns
I *know* it’s not uncommon, that doesn’t mean it’s something that works with *me* personally. Blame the newbs? It’s always the newbs *grin*. Yeah, it could be a need of realistic expectations?
> And so, presumably you wouldn’t choose to be with someone who was demandy-shouty and who never said please or thank you and then keep asking them to change to suit you.
That would be madness!
Madness? Naw, it’d be Sparta *grin*. Seriously though, I’d probably laugh and walk out. Yeah, we wouldn’t be compatible.
“I *know* it’s not uncommon, that doesn’t mean it’s something that works with *me* personally.”
Miscommunication. I meant I know that *your* view is not uncommon.
“Blame the newbs? It’s always the newbs *grin*”
*laugh* Of course! Bloody newbies!!
I do tend to think it’s more *likely* with newbies, but experienced bedroom submissives who have had lots of play, but who have never really submitted outside of the bedroom (where things like ‘Can you get me a coffee, please’ apply), may also struggle with this sort of thing.
Ferns
Ah, well then. I see the mis-communication
This maybe
> experienced bedroom submissives who have had lots of play, but who have never really submitted outside of the bedroom (where things like ‘Can you get me a coffee, please’ apply), may also struggle with this sort of thing.
I was just going to type up a big post about how grabbing coffee isn’t submission, it’s just something you should do regarding a good relationship.
I mean, doing *things* for the other person has nothing to do with submission / dominance.
The expression of those things and the why relate to all the D/s
Just testing to see if I can leave a comment now. Carry on, nothing to see here.
You can! I could have deleted this comment, but it was cute, so I didn’t.
Ferns
I think there’s a learning curve on both sides of the slash. I’ve had to learn *to* ask for things (instead of expecting him to read my mind… although I’m still hoping for that) and he’s had to learn what it really means when I ask for something or make a suggestion.
Yes, communication is key, but it’s not always as easy as that.
A couple of months ago, my boy had to go out of town on business. It was a really stressful thing for him, and so I told him he was “off the hook” in terms of calling and emailing and texting. What I said was “I know you’re busy, and I don’t expect to hear from you…”
Of course, a few hours later, I realized he was probably totally confused as to whether I wasn’t expecting to hear from him or whether I didn’t want to hear from him.
I was right. He had no idea and what afraid that it was a “command” and he wouldn’t have contacted me again until he was back in town.
Domme fail. (and communication fail, too)
I think clarity is vital, and I totally agree that sometimes we aren’t delivering the message we think we are.
But that’s a very different thing from something being clear, but not being delivered in the way he wants, so then he doesn’t do it.
“Domme fail. (and communication fail, too)”
No, no Domme fail! Just communication fail. It happens.
Ferns
Yes! So much yes!
I get so frustrated by people who talk about how they want to be dominated and feel powerless, then tell women exactly what to do and how to do it. It’s totally fine to be a dominant bottom, but don’t kid yourself that trying to train a woman to do things the way you want her to is somehow submissive behavior.
“I get so frustrated by people who talk about how they want to be dominated and feel powerless, then tell women exactly what to do and how to do it.”
Me too. I mean, sort it out *before* you get involved with someone and if you aren’t compatible, then don’t go there.
I suspect newbie Dommes are targets for this, they are the most likely to believe that ‘this is how it should be’ if they are told by a ‘helpful’ submissive.
I think those who are in an existing vanilla relationship where they are trying to move into D/s also have this problem, especially if he is introducing her to it and has had fantasies in his head for quite a while about ‘how it should be’.
Ferns
Good post. Just wanted to say that on the flip side, it can be incredibly difficult if (as a sub) you feel like your needs are not being cared for. I know in my own experiences that if we fall into a general relationship rut, there might be a pattern where she is still asking for things while I’m feeling less and less like a sub. I reach a point where I’m feeling bitter and want to scream “get your own goddamn coffee!”, like I’ve gone from her being her sub to being the husband who has to get everything she asks for.
Sometimes I feel like there is still a responsibility on both parties to do things to maintain a dynamic, which may include rituals, eyes on details, etc. If I’m in a space where I’m slipping (but still trying), I need more forceful reminders and when I don’t get them, the dynamic falls apart. If I slip up and break a rule and that’s not addressed, my submissive side feels less happy and fulfilled.
This post seriously struck a chord. Maybe I’m doing it wrong. Maybe I should just fucking submit… I don’t feel like she isn’t dominant enough. But I do want help and attention to make me feel like more of a sub. And that might be different from what you’re talking about, but I hope I’m not a total bastard for feeling this way.
(written from a darker place right now … we’re normally better at this, sorry for using your blog as a venting ground)
Thank you so much for your comment. I do appreciate it, and don’t mind at all you venting here.
“…it can be incredibly difficult if (as a sub) you feel like your needs are not being cared for”
Please don’t think that I am saying that submissives’ needs should not be met. They should.
I think there is a (tricky and often unclear) line between ‘meeting your submissive’s needs’ and ‘subjugating yourself to them’. If you don’t agree where that line is, then you are likely to have an issue.
“Sometimes I feel like there is still a responsibility on both parties to do things to maintain a dynamic, which may include rituals, eyes on details, etc.”
There is, absolutely. Both parties *do* have a part to play, and both have to be actively engaged.
If that wasn’t the case, a million submissive men married to vanilla women would be happy if she would just passively let him serve her. It doesn’t work like that.
Submission has to be accepted from a place of dominance (and vice versa) for both parties to be satisfied. I totally get that, and what that looks like for each relationship is different, but the fundamental premise is true.
“If I’m in a space where I’m slipping (but still trying), I need more forceful reminders and when I don’t get them, the dynamic falls apart. If I slip up and break a rule and that’s not addressed, my submissive side feels less happy and fulfilled.”
This makes sense to me, and I am sorry you are struggling with this.
This is about sitting down and talking about what’s going on, no different from any relationship issue. I think that like sex lives, D/s and play often go through ebbs and flows, peaking and then waning at times.
The only way to fix it is to talk about it.
“But I do want help and attention to make me feel like more of a sub. And that might be different from what you’re talking about, but I hope I’m not a total bastard for feeling this way.”
No, you are not a total bastard for feeling that way, and I can see why this post hit a chord with you. But yes, we are talking about different things.
There is a huge difference between ‘if you don’t do it like this, then I’m not submitting’ and ‘I think something is going wrong here, can we please talk about it’.
Nobody submits in a vacuum and I am not at all suggesting that submissives should be trying to.
If the dynamic is faltering then you need to talk about it. Not that you asked, but I’m going to give you advice anyway:
Don’t go to her with ‘I need x y and z to feel more submissive’, go to her with an open mind and ask her what *she* thinks is going on and what you can do to help. Talk about how you feel about it, by all means. Obviously something has been changing. If you can figure out what the underlying problem is, then hopefully you can talk it through and get back to normal.
I wish you the best of luck.
Ferns
Thanks Ferns. :)
You know, we love each other a lot (ridiculously so) but our relationship does involve a lot more struggle than I expected. Maybe it’s because we’re both mentally (and otherwise chronically) ill, that we’re more reactive to things than the average person, that we have more intense feelings.
There are prevailing messages that “you shouldn’t date someone with mental illness/who is a basket case/whichever”, and it’s often translated to “if you’re depressed/mental/whatever, make sure you sort through your issues before finding a partner.”
But nah, people like us deserve to have love too, and we get to figure out how to do D/s if we really want, and fuck the world if it says otherwise.
We have talked, but we’ll need to talk more, in different ways. We’ll need to work out strategies. It’s sad to think that we’ve “been there, done that” already, but I’ve always thought that my alternative is to love someone who doesn’t intimately understand (or appreciate) what I’m going through when I’m messed up.
Thanks again for your response and for listening.
Yes! If he feels she’s not dominant enough, then that’s mostly because he’s not submissive enough.
There’s also this thing that if you want real Femdom, rather than variations on scripted scenes, then it takes time for her to take her dominance for granted. Eventually, she may stop saying “please”, but not yet.
“If he feels she’s not dominant enough, then that’s mostly because he’s not submissive enough.”
You know, I have a post brewing on something very close to this based on the premise that I really never hear dominants say “He doesn’t make me feel dominant”, while I often hear submissives say, “She doesn’t make me feel submissive”. It bugs me in a way I can’t quite articulate (not enough to get ranty anyway).
It seems to imply that her dominance is completely independent and self driven, while his submission depends on her.
When Dommes, lose their mojo, they ask ‘how do I get it back?’ When submissives lose their mojo, they ask ‘how do I get her to do [stuff] to get it back?’
“it takes time for her to take her dominance for granted. Eventually, she may stop saying “please”, but not yet.”
I totally agree with this. Women will grow into their dominance, and honestly, a good submissive can make all the difference in this:
* If my submissive glows with pleasure when I assert myself, well, surprise surprise, I want to do more of that.
* If he skips happily off to do things I ask, I will ask more of him.
* If he exceeds my expectations, I will start to expect more of him.
* etc…
In short, a good submissive encourages my dominance by being awesome in his submission.
*smile* Now, whether it manifests in no longer saying ‘please’ is a whole other question.
Ferns
I just want to know all you feel.
The worst thing to tell me is “be nice to me or else!”
Be nice to me or else! That would seem daft to me. That is unless it’s a joke.
Cattle-prod sounds ok though. I enjoy 240 volt jolt around midnight. It wakes me up.
Just be nice to me, or else I’ll get Cougs and her cattle prod onto you!
Ferns
It’s funny because let someone ‘demand things’ in a ‘shouty’ kind of way and I will make excuses for them. I may well think that they are playing around for fun and kicks. I will think deep down that they only really mean it all in a polite way. I will think deep down that it is a polite request. Or else I will think that they are suffering some passing nervous breakdown and have lost the plot. I will believe deep down that they really do care what I want and how I feel. But if I do see that they really don’t care about me then much as it may hurt me I will probably never bother with them. Why should I?
BTW Satan is not frightened of Cougs. He can run much faster than her.
* If my submissive glows with pleasure when I assert myself, well, surprise surprise, I want to do more of that.
* If he skips happily off to do things I ask, I will ask more of him.
* If he exceeds my expectations, I will start to expect more of him
This is what I often try to explain to other subs who write me asking for advice for their wives. I’ve always told them that the best thing my boy did for me when we started out was simply show me what his submission would mean for me. I didn’t ask for anything, I didn’t demand anything… he just did. For over two months, he just did things. Somewhere towards the end of the two months, I finally began asking for things.
But back to the original post… What I often notice with the posters of those “she’s not Domme enough” is that they seem to expect a miraculous transformation over night. After 2.5 years since my boy introduced me to all this, I STILL don’t demand that much of him and it’s pretty rare a demand doesn’t come with a please and thank you.
“I’ve always told them that the best thing my boy did for me when we started out was simply show me what his submission would mean for me.”
That is wonderful advice, and I’m so glad it worked out for you and your boy.
“What I often notice with the posters of those “she’s not Domme enough” is that they seem to expect a miraculous transformation over night.”
I think this is often true when submissive men are trying to introduce D/s to their vanilla partners. Their expectations are often unrealistic, and I imagine that their instinct in trying to ‘help’ her if she is willing to go there is to give her a list of ‘stuff to do’ because she truly does need and want help.
On the other side, I think new Dommes with submissive parters don’t know enough to say ‘this is not helping’. They just know that they feel pressured and inadequate and ‘wrong’. It’s difficult for both sides.
I really appreciate your perspective, thank you for it.
Ferns
Women will grow into their dominance, and honestly, a good submissive can make all the difference in this:
and
In short, a good submissive encourages my dominance by being awesome in his submission.
YES! Positive reinforcement works. :)
Count me as another who hates seeing those “My SO says I’m not being domme enough for him” and I’m a newbie, ffs! What is the point of being a domme in a d/s relationship if she’s not having a good time and the sub starts topping from the bottom? She might as well date a vanilla guy and get the same amount of frustration without the d/s baggage.
/squelching rant
*holds nose, takes deep breath*
and a very different thing from something being clear, but not being delivered in the way he wants, so then he doesn’t do it.
Yes, which is what I think a lot of the new dommes are talking about in those threads, rather than an issue of unclear communication of intent.
I agree, that’s not domme fail, that’s “oh, what I said did not mean to him what I intended for him to think”. :) Which happens all the time for me, too.
Being a bit of a bitchy person sometimes, I’ll fully own up to that, but at other times I’m not. I would hate to be boxed into being bitchy all the time to have a d/s relationship (aka the psychological equivalent of feeling like I had to wear a full leather/latex suit and spiked boots to get a submissive partner to do anything).
I don’t know where I was going with this comment, except to echo-rant, I think. But I can’t wait to see the blog about this–>
I have a post brewing on something very close to this based on the premise that I really never hear dominants say “He doesn’t make me feel dominant”
I think that’s because a lot of the above new domme questions are coming from women who were introduced or initiated into d/s by their submissive SOs, perhaps.
I know that when I talk to a nice male dom, I don’t get (nor seek) a d/s dynamic, for example, but just because Random Sub approaches me doesn’t mean I want to dominate them, and that might be an issue of a separate, parellel d/s chemistry aside from f/m chemistry.
@ Miss Ferns
“Fuck off!”
That did make me chortle.
Sir Puppington Lothian
@Miss Ferns
”
I kind of went from the uber-polite vanilla-ey version to the shouty-demanding one, but of course there is lots in between.
“Get me a coffee,” all calm and firm is probably somewhere in the middle.
Ferns”
Ah! I’m glad that you can do it when you want to.
Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a piece of femdom porn in which the femdom gives an order quietly and casually.
Women who shout a lot give me earache. Femdoms or otherwise.
Whoops – that was me again, Miss Ferns! I don’t know where my head is these days!
Sir Puppington Lothian.
Femdoms?
I do welcome sex with a femdom.
Still say its best though, with no rubber at all.
@puppy: “Ah! I’m glad that you can do it when you want to.”
I think that ‘calm and firm’ is probably my default a lot of the time when I am telling him to do something. I still expect a polite request to be treated the same, but which I use depends on my headspace and not on ‘how he wants me to be’.
Ferns
@puppy: *laugh* I’ll be happy to tell you to fuck off anytime you want, puppy.
Ferns
@DomDomme: “What is the point of being a domme in a d/s relationship if she’s not having a good time”
Good question!
And if he is so intent on pushing her into a box that she doesn’t want to be in, then they are just incompatible.
“just because Random Sub approaches me doesn’t mean I want to dominate them, and that might be an issue of a separate, parellel d/s chemistry aside from f/m chemistry.”
*nod* I see D/s and F/m as separate ‘energies’ also, though most often they accentuate each other (that is, if I feel one, I am much more likely to feel the other). But then, I can feel a D/s energy with someone I don’t particularly like, and I can *really* like someone and feel no D/s chemistry. Makes it twice as difficult to find someone who fits me, dammit!
Ferns
@DomDomme: I realised that I didnt’ specifically reply to you… oops!
“What is the point of being a domme in a d/s relationship if she’s not having a good time…”
This in particular! I think for a lot of new dominants, the ‘good time’ comes from catering to his fantasies. That’s their power base and it *is* powerful, it’s amazing! But over time, it can become draining because it’s fantasy fulfilment for *him* versus actually figuring out what *she* wants.
The line is actually surprisingly difficult to draw, and for some, fulfilling his fantasies will be enough. Nothing wrong with that if they are both happy!
It’s a complex topic, all of it.
Ferns
So Ferns says… “…There is an assumption that ‘demanding things’ = being mean, using a shouty voice, acting like a bitch…”
True.
Well dominant women, here are your choices:
1. Just really be mean.
2. Just play it that way for fun and kicks for your slave and for you but don’t actually be mean.
Most women do not want be mean. You women here do not want to be mean.
This search leaves us at last with just choice number 2.
I want all of you women here to tell all of your slaves that they are very lucky to have you. That is because (I think) you choose number 2. You are not mean. The mean choice can seem hot. It can be hot. But it is ugly. The play choice can be far hotter than just being mean. It can be all that number one can be and far more. It can also be beautiful mutual love.
You forgot choice 3, which is ‘tell him to fuck off and don’t be mean *or* act mean!’
The addendum to that would be ‘… then find someone more compatible’.
Ferns
Dear Ferns, You say that I… “…forgot choice 3…” I didn’t forget. I think I see what you mean. But I am just trying to comment about 2 big choices here.
One truth in your comment is that none of us will fit absolutely perfectly into life choice 1 (mean) or 2 (not mean). Nevertheless each of us can choose (however imperfectly) 1 or 2.
To be mean is ugly.
People do find compatibility whether they are mean or not.
People also say fuck off whether they are mean or not. Saying that helps me to let off steam. I vote for that.
Satan
What if I do not want to be mean *or* act mean?
Then I have no use for choice 1 (mean). That is I choose 2 (not mean).
S.
Let two twins be perfect except only that their hearts are not the same.
You could choose the mean one. Their heart is black. You could choose the other one. Their heart is normal.
Here is my point. Whether you are or are not compatible will have a lot to do with what is in the heart.
“Here is my point. Whether you are or are not compatible will have a lot to do with what is in the heart.”
And also, probably, it will have a lot to do with whether you are compatible… *laugh*
Ferns
You are funny. Whether you are or are not compatible will have a lot to do with what is in the heart; “And also, probably, it will have a lot to do with whether you are compatible… *laugh*”
Not to set myself up as a target for yet more fist waving, but can’t there be a middle ground? Granted, it’s a bit much to expect ones domme to be overtly demanding and mean, complete with shrill voice and white knuckles gripping the cane she naturally always has at the ready, but is there anything wrong with using simple declarative requests?
Just dropping the word “please” in the example you cited, would take such little effort, yet yield a hugely disproportionate degree of joy to the submissive. Besides, such a change will always redound to the Domme’s benefit, because a happy submissive is an obedient and giving submissive.
If the guy is being a complete PITA about it, I can see your point, but if the request is respectfully made (and not constantly made), I would think most dommes who care for their subs happiness would be more than willing to oblige.
Regardless of which end of the whip they prefer, ALL people enter into a D/s dynamic to get their personal needs met. Sure, there are many dommes who feel they need to be purists and automatically not give a damn if their submissive’s needs are met or not, but I hope that they are in the minority.
Best,
Jake
I hope so too. I understand most kinds of mutual fun including pure selfishness eroticised. But what is ugly is to have the sex and then not care for your partner’s happiness.
@Jake: No fist waving. There’s no problem at all with with the middle ground, and nor, in fact, is there a problem with any extreme if it makes them both happy.
And sure, he should ask for anything he wants, preferably most of it is covered in the beginning of the relationship. Most Dommes (in LTRs anyway) will make decisions that ensure that he is happy in the relationship.
It’s only a problem if he expects her to behave in a way that isn’t comfortable or natural to her in order for him to submit. *That’s* a compatibility problem.
Ferns
Will you marry me?
Yes, of course. I thought you’d never ask!
We shall have a traditional wedding, in a French vineyard, with copious amounts of champagne. It will be lovely.
Ferns
We agree then. With the post aimed at new dommes, I don’t think it’s so much being uncomfortable with the act. Rather,I think it’s more a case of simply forgetting that it’s both “OK”, and indeed, preferable… to command in a direct way, rather than ask politely.
But if she genuinely does not want to do so, then yes, it’s time to back off and keep ones mouth shut.
I have to agree with the commenter above, who indicated that sitting there feigning deafness until he’s “asked” in the way he wishes, is a TOTAL no no.
Best,
Jake
I thought we agreed but now I’m not so sure!
“With the post aimed at new dommes, I don’t think it’s so much being uncomfortable with the act.”
Actually, that’s *exactly* what it is. If an act is making her uncomfortable, she shouldn’t force herself do it for his sake.
“…it’s both “OK”, and indeed, preferable… to command in a direct way, rather than ask politely.”
No. My point is that it’s both okay and preferable for her to command in *whatever way she wants*. She then needs to find someone who responds to that.
My rant was specifically about men who demand the mean-bitch, but it really doesn’t matter *what* he demands. The bottom line is that *she doesn’t need to change who she is to get what she wants*.
“But if she genuinely does not want to do so, then yes, it’s time to back off and keep ones mouth shut.”
Yes, or face the fact that you aren’t compatible.
Ferns
I think you misread me. Nowhere did I contradict your central point that “she doesn’t need to change who she is to get what she wants”.
All I’m saying is that after a lifetime of being polite to all (and especially so to the man in her life), old habits can be hard to break for a new domme.
If she doesn’t WANT to break the habit of always saying “please”, then obviously, the guy has to back off (see my paragraph 2 above).
But if she is either neutral about it, or is conducive to being more direct but forgets to be (because again, it’s a HABIT to be nice), then there’s nothing wrong with a gentle reminder on the subs part.
If she doesn’t WANT to be “reminded” (gently or otherwise), again… see my paragraph 2 above.
Best,
Jake
As someone exploring this dynamic, aka a newbie, this post really hit home for me. The difference is that I have been exerting the pressure on myself to be a certain way, act a certain way, etc. I have had to talk myself off the ledge a couple times that if it isn’t me, it isn’t authentic and real and no fun for either of us. My way is just fine and if that is sometimes with a please and other times careening into the bitchy realm, its still all good because that is me. Thanks!
Thank you so much for your comment.
“The difference is that I have been exerting the pressure on myself to be a certain way, act a certain way, etc.”
Oh, great point. I was focussing on a *partner* wanting you to act that way, but my god, the pressure from ‘general’ sources is also huge.
“My way is just fine and if that is sometimes with a please and other times careening into the bitchy realm, its still all good because that is me.”
Yes, exactly!! I’m so glad you found your comfort zone!
Ferns
Interesting discussion! My dominant wife gives me several direct commands every day. As her sub or slave, all I ask is that she clearly let me know what she wants. For example, “would you get me a drink?” means to me “get me a drink” so that is clear. I wouldn’t dream of answering no. As another example, “would you like to close the window?” is not clear to me because she could be asking me if I’m cold (something she does want to know from time to time) or she could be attempting to command me to close the window.
Now of course I wouldn’t dream of making her feel bad for asking me a question which confuses me but I simply ask her for clarification.
As it turns out, my wife seems to enjoy giving me clear commands without any question. “Get me a drink, close the window, and drape the blanket over my legs.” That works for both of us because she gets exactly what she wants and I am not in a state of confusion about what that is.
She is never mean commanding such as yelling or demeaning me, except from time to time when it’s clearly play. I’m fine with whatever she wants to do as long as she does not hold herself back from getting what she wants because she thinks I might not want to serve her (I always want to serve her).
-Bluebonnet1’s Ted